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About LonelyGaruga

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  • Main character — Duodecim

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  1. So you're telling me that you use spacing to land SA when I've been saying that Lightning has a 6-4 advantage because she has superior spacing ability. She dashes like, 50% faster than Firion, if she wants to get in range she's going to get in range. And if you're going into the air to do this then she can Blizzara you. Being in the air in general against Lightning is not that great of an idea since Firion is completely defenseless against Thunder, since she can now attack him from below and punish dodges with Army of One (if she's using it), along with Blizzara not being possible to Shield Bash (although she can just Crushing Blow Shield Bash's projectiles). So I take it that, at this level of gameplay, people still aren't assist punishing SA consistently? Because every SA you land should be netting a break for your opponent unless that's the case, which is basically dealing 1K damage and letting your opponent get 2K BRV for free. If your primary strategy is to use SA, then it's definitely a bad matchup. It'd work fine on something like Edge of Madness, but anywhere bigger than that seems really questionable.
  2. I looked back into the old stuff and saw that Terrina posted about it being 6-4 Lightning favor and said I was adamantly against it being anything worse than 5-5. She also said I was just being stubborn about it. So I did test it with Terrina, and she won 7 or 8 out of 10 matches (which is a big deal since back then I would usually go about 6-4 in 5-5 matchups with casuals), but I still said it was a 5-5 matchup, and she didn't put it at worse than 6-4. That stuff aside, you're telling me that Firion can keep himself safe against Lightning by spacing, but he also needs to use Concentration, which requires him to stand still, which prevents him from spacing. Do you not see the problem with this? You're right that Lightning can't play recklessly with Thunder or she'll get hit, but Thunder's end lag is so low that she can block or dodge Rope Knife and Lance Combo punish attempts (from there, if Firion attempts to use lance followup, Crushing Blow punishes, and if Firion tries to dodge, Thunder punishes because Firion cannot cover his dodge with Shield Bash or Swordslash, putting him at a disadvantageous position), and she can use it without any risk of Straightarrow because she can dash almost immediately after using Thunder (gap is like, 6f or 1/10th of a second in 60 FPS, Swordslash is 5f while running in 60 FPS for comparison). That leaves Swordslash, which Thunder outranges. Naturally, spacing is important in this matchup, since Lightning has better tools than Firion. That's why Firion can't use Concentration, he has no choice but to move. If you compare the matchup with something like Firion-Tifa, which has had its contentions but is certainly 5-5 as long as the players play their best, it should be clear that Lightning holds some significant advantages in her ability to fight Firion compared to Tifa, and Firion does not really have the same ability to counter or negate what Lightning can do the way he can with Tifa (this is especially true with strategic use of Emperor assist). Tifa is slower, has more lag on her attacks, cannot attack outside of Swordslash range, cannot freely dodge punish Firion on the ground outside of Burning Arrow (so she must be grounded), and her EX generation is considerably lower. Tifa also has quite a bit lower DEF so she's taking more damage on the mistakes she does make, which is easier to do because Firion is capable of punishing anything Tifa does given the correct situation, or at least create a mix-up that can net hits. Lightning has all of these advantages to fighting Firion, and Firion has no comparable advantages unique to the matchup to even things out. So how can this be 5-5? Regarding Firion-Zidane, Firion's damage output is only a little lower than Zidane's with Emperor assist, so it's fine. Keep in mind that Firion is regularly dealing 3HKOs with properly executed combos.
  3. I am dumbfounded at the idea that Firion is ever using Concentration on a character with one of the safest methods of approaching him (camping is not her primary strategy, it's just to make it harder to counter her dash-in). I also don't remember testing it with Terrina and concluding it was 7-3 Lightning favor. Rather, the testing I did was with Kayarine, and we were both baffled at how ridiculously safe Lightning was in the matchup. She just picked her up and she could do everything I said, and she wasn't even very good at the game. We also put it at 6-4 and not 7-3. It was pretty obvious that a basic aggressive approach with Lightning from anyone with decent Thunder usage was difficult for Firion to counter since he has no way to defend against it. When did Concentration ever become a meta thing to use for Firion (or any character for that matter), and what is this talk about the MU being Firion's favor when he cannot (outside of significant player error) punish Thunder? I understand that, having played minimally in years, I'm going only by prior experience, but what you're describing is completely contrary to everything I'm familiar with. What are you talking about here?
  4. First time replying to something here with a quote, so sorry if I screw up the format here. Agreeing with Garland and Zidane's numbers, but Exdeath can just use Zidane assist to punish Straightarrow, when the stage isn't so big that Firion cannot interrupt Maelstrom. Firion can try to get up close, but a smart Exdeath is going to be doing things like throwing out Black Hole or just teleporting away. The long game favors Exdeath, so playing a patient runaway style is perfectly fine. Lightning doesn't need to camp Firion though...he has literally no good answer to Thunder against a Lightning with reasonable reaction times and good spacing. She can sit in front of his face at Thunder range and everything he can do is disadvantageous compared to what Lightning's options are. Within Thunder range, everything is interrupted except Swordslash (which Thunder outranges) and Shield Bash (which triggers the melee response), just by continuously using Thunder. Firion's only options become to block and try to get into Swordslash range (which allows Lightning to mix it up with her HP moves, punishing blocks) or run away. Lightning easily camps above Firion's head and can punish almost all of his attacks on reaction with Thunderfall. She has an easy time getting in, an easy time punishing, and has an overall much better risk:reward ratio than Firion does. It's clearly favorable to her. 6-4 Lightning favor at the very least. Firion-Prishe should also generally be 6-4 since, while Prishe has good speed, her range is such that every time she gets close but doesn't land an attack is a Lord of Arms or Straightarrow mixup, which favors Firion, and she has to contend with Emperor assist's Thunder Crest for many stages, which makes Firion impossible to approach while it's up and can be used to interrupt some of her attacks when she lands them. The risk:reward situation favors Firion, since Prishe is getting fewer openings to land hits and is getting less off of them than Firion is getting off of his hits. Her BRV damage, while excellent, is comparable to Firion's own (and he has superior DEF to Prishe), and Firion is having a much easier time landing HP hits compared to Prishe, with superior HP moves and more opportunities to land them. Firion holds too many advantages with his tools for the MU to be even.
  5. How did Firion lose 7 points from the old tier list? Firion-Exdeath: 3-7 > 4-6 (+1) Firion-Prishe: 6-4 > 5-5 (+0) Firion-Lightning: 4-6 > 5-5 (+1) Firion-Jecht: 6-4 > 5-5 (+0) Firion-Zidane: 5-5 > 4-6 (-1) Firion-Kuja: 4-6 > 3-7 (-2) Firion-Kefka: 5-5 > 4-6 (-3) Firion-Kain: 6-4 > 5-5 (-4) Firion-Gilgamesh: 7-3 > 6-4 (-5) Firion-Garland: 7-3 > 5-5 (-7) Who is representing Firion now that I'm not around anymore, and are they better than I was (they're certainly better than I am now, anyway)? Feels like some of these are a bit of a step backwards. No questions about Firion-Jecht specifically, but the rest are kinda huh. How is Exdeath a better MU than Kuja? Also, cuz no one else pointed this out, placements within a tier are by alphabetical order and not point placement. Ultimecia is still #1. Prishe is #2, Exdeath is #3.

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