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The list is made up of MU values as half the weight, the other half from professional opinion. MU values are made up of frame data and recent tournament placement. Professional opinion is made up of player skill, the meta, and recent representation.

Credits to HYNE for all the beautiful graphic work.

BashBros involved in updating the tier list include Ehx, Yunoa, Wheelz, JT, Blakklite and myself.

Edited by LXD92
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7 hours ago, MLSabre said:

Most interested to see a detailed breakdown in Jecht's elevation in the tier list. As well as Exdeath dethroning Ultimecia.

Ultimecia got sick from eating Void Cake.

I`m surprised Yuna is so low.

Edited by Edon

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It'd probably do good to mention that many characters lack severe representation and presence in the current meta. No surprise Ultimecia dropped.

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How did Firion lose 7 points from the old tier list?

Firion-Exdeath: 3-7 > 4-6 (+1)

Firion-Prishe: 6-4 > 5-5 (+0)

Firion-Lightning: 4-6 > 5-5 (+1)

Firion-Jecht: 6-4 > 5-5 (+0)

Firion-Zidane: 5-5 > 4-6 (-1) 

Firion-Kuja: 4-6 > 3-7 (-2)

Firion-Kefka: 5-5 > 4-6 (-3)

Firion-Kain: 6-4 > 5-5 (-4)

Firion-Gilgamesh: 7-3 > 6-4 (-5) 

Firion-Garland: 7-3 > 5-5 (-7) 

Who is representing Firion now that I'm not around anymore, and are they better than I was (they're certainly better than I am now, anyway)? Feels like some of these are a bit of a step backwards. No questions about Firion-Jecht specifically, but the rest are kinda huh. How is Exdeath a better MU than Kuja?

Also, cuz no one else pointed this out, placements within a tier are by alphabetical order and not point placement. Ultimecia is still #1. Prishe is #2, Exdeath is #3.

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I did before this list was published, they didn't consult me at all about the numbers, hopefully, most of the numbers are better than the old list. I don't agree with Garland and Zidane matchups, they should be 6-4 and 5-5, the rest is ok. Exdeath is much easier to deal with Kuja because NO ONE can omniblock arrows with 100% accuracy, and depending on distance and reaction of the Firion player, omniblocking doesn't mean guarantee hp hit. Kuja can literally punish and dodge everything.

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Firion has a major advantage over Exdeath, because, as Coppala was saying, it's much easier to time Straightarrow against an Omni-blocking Exdeath than it is for an Exdeath player to time and block Straightarrow. Firion beats out Lightning too in most cases if he keeps calm, and has Concentration equipped so Lightning can't just run away and use Cure all day. I'm not sure about Firion vs Prishe, I'd have to test it more, but Prishe is fast and nimble, so she can easily avoid anything Firion can throw at her, and she outdamages him. Not to mention her fall speed makes Straightarrow pretty hard to land. I could see it potentially being a 6-4 Firion or 6-4 Prishe depending on stages, and how each player approaches the matchup.

Edited by kewldude475

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On 7/11/2017 at 1:31 PM, Coppola said:

I did before this list was published, they didn't consult me at all about the numbers, hopefully, most of the numbers are better than the old list. I don't agree with Garland and Zidane matchups, they should be 6-4 and 5-5, the rest is ok. Exdeath is much easier to deal with Kuja because NO ONE can omniblock arrows with 100% accuracy, and depending on distance and reaction of the Firion player, omniblocking doesn't mean guarantee hp hit. Kuja can literally punish and dodge everything.

First time replying to something here with a quote, so sorry if I screw up the format here. 

Agreeing with Garland and Zidane's numbers, but Exdeath can just use Zidane assist to punish Straightarrow, when the stage isn't so big that Firion cannot interrupt Maelstrom. Firion can try to get up close, but a smart Exdeath is going to be doing things like throwing out Black Hole or just teleporting away. The long game favors Exdeath, so playing a patient runaway style is perfectly fine. 

On 7/12/2017 at 3:31 AM, kewldude475 said:

Firion has a major advantage over Exdeath, because, as Coppala was saying, it's much easier to time Straightarrow against an Omni-blocking Exdeath than it is for an Exdeath player to time and block Straightarrow. Firion beats out Lightning too in most cases if he keeps calm, and has Concentration equipped so Lightning can't just run away and use Cure all day. I'm not sure about Firion vs Prishe, I'd have to test it more, but Prishe is fast and nimble, so she can easily avoid anything Firion can throw at her, and she outdamages him. Not to mention her fall speed makes Straightarrow pretty hard to land. I could see it potentially being a 6-4 Firion or 6-4 Prishe depending on stages, and how each player approaches the matchup.

Lightning doesn't need to camp Firion though...he has literally no good answer to Thunder against a Lightning with reasonable reaction times and good spacing. She can sit in front of his face at Thunder range and everything he can do is disadvantageous compared to what Lightning's options are. Within Thunder range, everything is interrupted except Swordslash (which Thunder outranges) and Shield Bash (which triggers the melee response), just by continuously using Thunder. Firion's only options become to block and try to get into Swordslash range (which allows Lightning to mix it up with her HP moves, punishing blocks) or run away. Lightning easily camps above Firion's head and can punish almost all of his attacks on reaction with Thunderfall. She has an easy time getting in, an easy time punishing, and has an overall much better risk:reward ratio than Firion does. It's clearly favorable to her. 6-4 Lightning favor at the very least.

Firion-Prishe should also generally be 6-4 since, while Prishe has good speed, her range is such that every time she gets close but doesn't land an attack is a Lord of Arms or Straightarrow mixup, which favors Firion, and she has to contend with Emperor assist's Thunder Crest for many stages, which makes Firion impossible to approach while it's up and can be used to interrupt some of her attacks when she lands them. The risk:reward situation favors Firion, since Prishe is getting fewer openings to land hits and is getting less off of them than Firion is getting off of his hits. Her BRV damage, while excellent, is comparable to Firion's own (and he has superior DEF to Prishe), and Firion is having a much easier time landing HP hits compared to Prishe, with superior HP moves and more opportunities to land them. Firion holds too many advantages with his tools for the MU to be even. 

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Although no one has used Emperor ast on me vs a Prishe vs Emperor match up not sure what answers she has against him from experience but from what I know it shouldn't be a problem to deal with. I will just wait thunder crest to be done, since Prishes run speed is so good I can avoid Straight arrow easily by just resetting back to neutral  if he's spamming or by dropping to the ground and using my running speed to avoid it... same with rope knife and I can just hover around him and above him to a avoid lord of arms... if you have any doubts you can watch any prishe match ups in tournament play from me and If you got any doubts I can prishe against any firion and beat them easily. So 5-5 stands since it's my number until proven otherwise from recent tournaments. 

 

Edited by Wheelz

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On 7/22/2017 at 4:31 AM, LonelyGaruga said:

Lightning doesn't need to camp Firion though...he has literally no good answer to Thunder against a Lightning with reasonable reaction times and good spacing. She can sit in front of his face at Thunder range and everything he can do is disadvantageous compared to what Lightning's options are. Within Thunder range, everything is interrupted except Swordslash (which Thunder outranges) and Shield Bash (which triggers the melee response), just by continuously using Thunder. Firion's only options become to block and try to get into Swordslash range (which allows Lightning to mix it up with her HP moves, punishing blocks) or run away. Lightning easily camps above Firion's head and can punish almost all of his attacks on reaction with Thunderfall. She has an easy time getting in, an easy time punishing, and has an overall much better risk:reward ratio than Firion does. It's clearly favorable to her. 6-4 Lightning favor at the very least.

Doesn't matter if she camps him or not, she can't do anything to him if he has concentration. Obviously no one is going to use Shield Bash if it's gonna get them punished. Anyways, after you tested it with Terrina and concluded it was 7-3 Lightning (which, without Concentration involved, probably isn't a bad opinion) I tested it extensively with Terrina against her Lightning and determined it was at least around a 6-4 Firion Even after Cipher defeated me in Summer Wars he actually admitted to me that I would have won if I had Concentration equipped, but he told me "I knew you'd forget to equip it though <3". Theory fighting is entirely meaningless in the face of actual testing with skilled exceptional players with said character. We're all too smart now to approach matchups based on theory, since we all know most of the strategies people are trying now and what they could do. Even if it were changed to 6-4 Firion I doubt his placement would change much anyways. 

Outside of all that I think the tier list actually looks really good. I would probably put Kuja in B tier, and Onion Knight and Vaan in A tier though. Or at least, if Kuja is A tier, Vaan and OK are too. Onion Knight is a well-known counter-pick character, and with dash tech+assist gauge up dash and Side by Side, he can virtually always have assist ready, and use a level 2 assist change counter if needed. And Vaan has a plethora of tools to deal good damage, he has pokes in the air and on the ground, and has a double dodge in the form of Rifle. Also, Windburst is extremely useful, as it comes out deceptively quickly and stays on the field even if Vaan is hit, so many characters have a hard time completing their combos since Windburst is always pulling them away from Vaan's hitbox. And many characters have a hard time reflecting it, such as Warrior of Light, since his only attack that can reflect it in the air, Shield of Light, has a narrow hitbox that won't connect with Windburst. Also Laguna really isn't a bad character at all (I'm sure UW2K could convince everyone Laguna is actually S tier if he wanted to) but he lacks representation, and people didn't know how to use him well back when he was placed in his tier. He has a lot of keepaway options and Bazooka/Ricochet shot are great for whittling down bravery. Electroshield is extremely useful as well since it comes out pretty quick and is mid-priority, so it's like a weaker version of Knight's Lance. But yeah, the list looks really good I think. 

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I am dumbfounded at the idea that Firion is ever using Concentration on a character with one of the safest methods of approaching him (camping is not her primary strategy, it's just to make it harder to counter her dash-in). I also don't remember testing it with Terrina and concluding it was 7-3 Lightning favor. Rather, the testing I did was with Kayarine, and we were both baffled at how ridiculously safe Lightning was in the matchup. She just picked her up and she could do everything I said, and she wasn't even very good at the game. We also put it at 6-4 and not 7-3. It was pretty obvious that a basic aggressive approach with Lightning from anyone with decent Thunder usage was difficult for Firion to counter since he has no way to defend against it. 

When did Concentration ever become a meta thing to use for Firion (or any character for that matter), and what is this talk about the MU being Firion's favor when he cannot (outside of significant player error) punish Thunder? I understand that, having played minimally in years, I'm going only by prior experience, but what you're describing is completely contrary to everything I'm familiar with. What are you talking about here? 

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17 hours ago, LonelyGaruga said:

I am dumbfounded at the idea that Firion is ever using Concentration on a character with one of the safest methods of approaching him (camping is not her primary strategy, it's just to make it harder to counter her dash-in). I also don't remember testing it with Terrina and concluding it was 7-3 Lightning favor. Rather, the testing I did was with Kayarine, and we were both baffled at how ridiculously safe Lightning was in the matchup. She just picked her up and she could do everything I said, and she wasn't even very good at the game. We also put it at 6-4 and not 7-3. It was pretty obvious that a basic aggressive approach with Lightning from anyone with decent Thunder usage was difficult for Firion to counter since he has no way to defend against it. 

When did Concentration ever become a meta thing to use for Firion (or any character for that matter), and what is this talk about the MU being Firion's favor when he cannot (outside of significant player error) punish Thunder? I understand that, having played minimally in years, I'm going only by prior experience, but what you're describing is It was like 4 years ago at this point so it's not surprising you don't remember. And yeah Lightning is pretty safe but so is Firion. I already tested it extensively with Terrina, and Cipher pointed out that Firion has the advantage if he has Concentration.  I didn't just make the Concentration thing up out of thin air. I figure you would at least take Cipher's word, if you don't want to take mines. Also, if you're decent at spacing, Thunder isn't really a threat either and leaves Lightning open for a Straightarrow attempt. If you know how to space properly, Straightarrow is definitely a problem for Lightning. Not to mention Rope Knife, Swordslash, and even Lance can go through Thunder if Lightning isn't careful, so it's not like she can use it willy nilly. Lightning is very safe against Firion, but that doesn't change the fact that she literally can't do anything to him, particularly if the Firion player is decent at spacing, and knows what opportunities to take. I could see a 5-5 though. Idk about 6-4 Lightning but 5-5 I could see. Just looked at the spreadsheet actually, and it's already listed at 5-5, and I don't have a problem with that honestly that very well could be about right. It's oftentimes a long-winded matchup, as both characters are safe, and it involves a lot of waiting for one player to make a mistake. 

It was like 4 years ago at this point so I'm not that surprised you don't remember playing it with Terrina at this point. But yeah Cipher already backed me up on that, so I'm not just pulling Concentration's effectiveness out of thin air. Lightning is very safe yes, but so is Firion. She can't do a whole lot to a Firion player who is decent at spacing, and her attacking him leaves her open for a Straightarrow attempt, especially if the Firion player can space somewhat well. Also, Rope Knife, Lance Combo, and Swordslash can go through Thunder, so Lightning has to be careful. Also of course stages have to be considered. After taking a look at the spreadsheet though, I see it's already listed at 5-5, which I have no problem with whatsoever, considering how much both players have to wait for someone to make a mistake in that matchup. It can definitely be a long-winded fight. 

But yeah like I said I think the list looks about right for the most part. Shame about Bartz's placement, as a good Bartz can really scary, especially on a ground stage where he can mindgame with Solid Ascension, Hazard Raid, and Hellfire mixups, but sadly it's just that all the other characters are so good in comparison, and Bartz shines more on ground stages. I don't think he's the worst character in the game, he just has to work harder to win for sure.

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That aside I think your Firion numbers look really good Garuga. By default I'm skeptical of any values involving Zidane since he has those 4-6K damage Aerith combos, but at the end of the day I can't really say I have any qualms

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I looked back into the old stuff and saw that Terrina posted about it being 6-4 Lightning favor and said I was adamantly against it being anything worse than 5-5. She also said I was just being stubborn about it. So I did test it with Terrina, and she won 7 or 8 out of 10 matches (which is a big deal since back then I would usually go about 6-4 in 5-5 matchups with casuals), but I still said it was a 5-5 matchup, and she didn't put it at worse than 6-4. 

That stuff aside, you're telling me that Firion can keep himself safe against Lightning by spacing, but he also needs to use Concentration, which requires him to stand still, which prevents him from spacing. Do you not see the problem with this? You're right that Lightning can't play  recklessly with Thunder or she'll get hit, but Thunder's end lag is so low that she can block or dodge Rope Knife and Lance Combo punish attempts (from there, if Firion attempts to use lance followup, Crushing Blow punishes, and if Firion tries to dodge, Thunder punishes because Firion cannot cover his dodge with Shield Bash or Swordslash, putting him at a disadvantageous position), and she can use it without any risk of Straightarrow because she can dash almost immediately after using Thunder (gap is like, 6f or 1/10th of a second in 60 FPS, Swordslash is 5f while running in 60 FPS for comparison). That leaves Swordslash, which Thunder outranges. Naturally, spacing is important in this matchup, since Lightning has better tools than Firion. That's why Firion can't use Concentration, he has no choice but to move.

If you compare the matchup with something like Firion-Tifa, which has had its contentions but is certainly 5-5 as long as the players play their best, it should be clear that Lightning holds some significant advantages in her ability to fight Firion compared to Tifa, and Firion does not really have the same ability to counter or negate what Lightning can do the way he can with Tifa (this is especially true with strategic use of Emperor assist). Tifa is slower, has more lag on her attacks, cannot attack outside of Swordslash range, cannot freely dodge punish Firion on the ground outside of Burning Arrow (so she must be grounded), and her EX generation is considerably lower. Tifa also has quite a bit lower DEF so she's taking more damage on the mistakes she does make, which is easier to do because Firion is capable of punishing anything Tifa does given the correct situation, or at least create a mix-up that can net hits. 

Lightning has all of these advantages to fighting Firion, and Firion has no comparable advantages unique to the matchup to even things out. So how can this be 5-5? 

Regarding Firion-Zidane, Firion's damage output is only a little lower than Zidane's with Emperor assist, so it's fine. Keep in mind that Firion is regularly dealing 3HKOs with properly executed combos.

Edited by LonelyGaruga

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Terrina asked to test it with me after that and at the end of the night it was like 25-5, and she tried everything, so we figured it was at least about 6-4 Firion. Also, she was no casual, she's a great player and you know it. Spacing and Concentration usage are two entirely separate matters. Concentration is to prevent Lightning from baiting Firion with Cure/Cura spam, and spacing is to land Straightarrow without getting punished, or being immediately within Thunder's Range. Concentration is more of an insurance policy, not an offensive strategy. Also I run Free air dash Firion now, and from my limited experience it's a better setup, so that could help him too with chasing Lightning down if need be, and he can space with descent speed boost to avoid getting too close to her and to set himself up for safer Straightarrow attempts.

Edited by kewldude475

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So you're telling me that you use spacing to land SA when I've been saying that Lightning has a 6-4 advantage because she has superior spacing ability. She dashes like, 50% faster than Firion, if she wants to get in range she's going to get in range. And if you're going into the air to do this then she can Blizzara you. Being in the air in general against Lightning is not that great of an idea since Firion is completely defenseless against Thunder, since she can now attack him from below and punish dodges with Army of One (if she's using it), along with Blizzara not being possible to Shield Bash (although she can just Crushing Blow Shield Bash's projectiles). 

So I take it that, at this level of gameplay, people still aren't assist punishing SA consistently? Because every SA you land should be netting a break for your opponent unless that's the case, which is basically dealing 1K damage and letting your opponent get 2K BRV for free. If your primary strategy is to use SA, then it's definitely a bad matchup. It'd work fine on something like Edge of Madness, but anywhere bigger than that seems really questionable. 

Edited by LonelyGaruga

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Nah, every SA definitely won't get you broken if you use it intelligently, and not when the opponent can of course punish you. If you can keep momentum going you can also keep your opponent's assist down with depletion. Also, Firion doesn't ever need to go into the air, because he has concentration, and can stay on the ground as long as he wants, and Lightning has to be the one to come to him. Also Firion isn't defenseless in the least against Thunder. At least, not on the ground, since again all of his attacks go through Thunder, and if Lightning is fighting a Firion who can space well, if she misses with Thunder she'll be left open in the air, where Firion can force a bad dodge and connect with Straightarrow, and since Lightning's fall speed isn't as fast as someone as say, Prishe or Kain, she can still get hit by it. 

But yeah SA getting punished is mostly a non-issue. If it is, it's because the Firion player is new and using Straightarrow when he can easily be punished. The best time to use SA is after getting rid of your opponent's assist, which is what I did against Lightning. Thunder isn't really an especially huge threat to a grounded Firion, and again, a whiffed Thunder gives a Firion player who is spacing well time, and distance to use SA. Concentration in most cases ensures Firion won't have to fight Lightning in the air unless he wants to for some odd reason

Edited by kewldude475

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I have many issues with the zidane-tidus mu, There's not much Tidus can do, Shift break becomes a threat if he goes too far and Swift Attack is literally hopstep but with a bigger reward and how is he gonna build assist or ex againts a SBS zidane :V. its just not 5-5.

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Exdeath as #1 huh? Curious to know if Ultimaweapon contributed to this list ?

But man does this bring me back to the lolz of the backroom. Also seeing Jecht so high after years of him being so low only makes me think its strictly player skill. Who's the new current good Jecht player? Unless clavier is still around

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17 hours ago, JSeven said:

Exdeath as #1 huh? Curious to know if Ultimaweapon contributed to this list ?

But man does this bring me back to the lolz of the backroom. Also seeing Jecht so high after years of him being so low only makes me think its strictly player skill. Who's the new current good Jecht player? Unless clavier is still around

Muggshotter is the current excellent Jecht player.

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On 08/05/2017 at 5:56 PM, MLSabre said:

Most interested to see a detailed breakdown in Jecht's elevation in the tier list. As well as Exdeath dethroning Ultimecia.

But Ultimecia was not dethroned

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Looks at muggs 👀👀👀

On 5/8/2017 at 4:56 PM, MLSabre said:

Most interested to see a detailed breakdown in Jecht's elevation in the tier list. As well as Exdeath dethroning Ultimecia.

Watches uw vs muggs🤷🏽‍♂️🤷🏽‍♂️🤷🏽‍♂️

Edited by JT

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      How to use the tool Bug reporting and known bugs Downloads
      I'll host all the releases in my Github account; just go to the GitHub's release page and download the "ddff_dlc_toolkit" .zip file.

      Version 1.1.2 (2/14/2016): 
      https://github.com/adriangl/DissDlcT...ses/tag/v1.1.2
      Changelog
      2/14/2016 - Version 1.1.2 General: Support for high DPI screens BGM Generation Tab: Removed 36 characters limitation in song names. Now the user will be notified that exceeding that size may not render the name properly in-game. Thanks to convalise for the suggestion! Fixed bug that generated wrong names for songs with hex numbers that contained uppercase letters. Thanks to Lugia2009 & convalise for the bug report! Source code
      You can get the tool's source code from its Github page. Feel free to submit bugs or pull requests there if you want to 
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