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7 hours ago, Eddiegames said:

Hey Sys, so just looking over this here are some thoughts

- With Side by Side and Bravery Recovery Up Banned, I don't understand why the Base Brave 1250 Limit is there, and without Piggy Stick or Thornlet, you cant get it much higher than that anyway(edited)

Chippers like Zidane and Onion Knight with their easy access to HP damage.

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- I have no idea at all why Brv Boost on Stage Destruction is banned

There is a World of Darkness (yes, both versions of that stage) build that makes it extremely easy to obtain at least 9k Bravery in a matter of less than 15 seconds in combination with the booster Easy Come, Easy Go and at least 8 other different boosters if not 9. All you have to do is equip Mindbreak and a bunch of related BRV Boost on Stage Destruction equipment and you have an extremely braindead, powerful, degenerate strategy on your hands. That being said, I do not remember the ruling on Easy Come, Easy Go, but seeing how it only provides x2.5 for only 15 seconds then cuts your entire total in half in a ruleset where the limit is x 3.1, it absolutely sucks. So I just left it in as allowed. Kappa_zpsa144aadb.png

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- EXR Duration Boosts are relatively niche for a few select characters, I don't see why they're banned

I'll be honest, I do not remember the complete ruling on this one myself. I believe it has to do with BRV hoarding and then HP-ing for the kill.

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- And EX Core Appearance Boost has risks involved, and since side by side is banned, it's still valuable for both players, but I can kinda understand this for the sake of not building meter too quickly

EX Core Appearance boosts make it easy to hoard for EX and also detracts / distracts from the overall pace of the fight alot more frequently than normal.

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- With the Straight Damage Accs banned (the best ones anyway), I'm slightly surprised that Sniper Eye and to a lesser extent Booster arent

The lesser are more viable in this ruleset. The former are banned to make the lesser used defensive equivalents like Protect Stud, Block Ring and Defense Veil, more viable. The ruleset itself was also designed with things like these in mind so that alot more normally unused assets in common Official metagames could potentially see more use in competitive Duodecim gameplay.

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- I don't really understand Snowpetal's Ban, Genji's kinda makes sense, for the Regen reasons, and also because in a no SbS format it would be very strong

+30% BRV Boost on block makes it really easy to hoard BRV against mages like Terra or characters with easily blockable projectiles like Bartz / Cecil. It makes them worse, actually. For this same reason I think Adamant Set is a suspect for testing as well as the Adamant Set/Zephyr's Cloak combination, but I do not think there's any need to come to a hasty conclusion at this time.

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- Don't get why Riposte is banned, the other extra abilities make sense

Duodecim as a game is already defensive / turtly enough as it is. Iirc, Hollowed quoted a long time ago that getting an increased reward for staggering a character for free on Block seemed too powerful already, and Riposte may have been ok to allow in situations like staggering your opponent's BRV with your own BRV (i.e. Vaan's SW Katana). But otherwise, no.

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- Also if you're trying to reduce crits, maybe ban Assist Critical Plus? (Although I understand the point of trying to make each assist more valuable)(edited)

Every other crit ability is fine.

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- EX Revenge Duration being shortened isnt something that most characters care about, they mostly only care about the defensive utility and getting one free HP hit. It really only significantly negatively impacts Garland and Gab

See my reply to EXR Duration boosts.

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- I feel like Assist Guage Charge (Attack) should be something, just really low; because as is, while zoning is in place it can make assist gen for both parties very inconsistent, it also super duper nerfs Exdeath, but that's not nescecarily a bad thing

Enabling the AGG (Attack) feature would also quite nerf characters with horribly unsafe "pokes" like Bartz or Cecil since their framedata is horrible for building Assist. By disabling this, those same characters are made more viable because they no longer whiff an unsafe poke as a necessity just to keep up with the rest of the cast.

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Besides those points, I think everything looks pretty good

And I'm down to trying it in the future

In the future, if Hollowed himself ever returns or there is a solid-enough change in circumstances that warrants changes to the ruleset, I will update the ruleset itself. But only if the changes can be made with absolute 100% certainty.

 

Also, everyone should please post all your inquiries here in this thread. This is to prevent messy clutter on the ruleset page. 🙂

Edited by Sys

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14 minutes ago, Sys said:

There is a World of Darkness (yes, both versions of that stage) build that makes it extremely easy to obtain at least 9k Bravery in a matter of less than 15 seconds in combination with the booster Easy Come, Easy Go and at least 8 other different boosters if not 9. All you have to do is equip Mindbreak and a bunch of related BRV Boost on Stage Destruction equipment and you have an extremely braindead, powerful, degenerate strategy on your hands. That being said, I do not remember the ruling on Easy Come, Easy Go, but seeing how it only provides x2.5 for only 15 seconds then cuts your entire total in half in a ruleset where the limit is x 3.1, it absolutely sucks. So I just left it in as allowed. Kappa_zpsa144aadb.png

lol really? wow

14 minutes ago, Sys said:

I'll be honest, I do not remember the complete ruling on this one myself. I believe it has to do with BRV hoarding and then HP-ing for the kill.

My point with this one was that most of the characters that would BRV Hoard and then HP with EXR for the kill wouldn't actually care about how low EXR lasted, only that they could use it at all, characters that actually so make the full use of their EXR time (Garland, Gab, Seph) would get hurt by the change, whereas characters like Light who just build up, pop it, and immediately do an HP wouldn't care.

18 minutes ago, Sys said:

+30% BRV Boost on block makes it really easy to hoard BRV against mages like Terra or characters with easily blockable projectiles like Bartz / Cecil. It makes them worse, actually. For this same reason I think Adamant Set is a suspect for testing as well as the Adamant Set/Zephyr's Cloak combination, but I do not think there's any need to come to a hasty conclusion at this time.

BRV Boost on Block is still quite a bit of a gamble on non-Exdeath characters, and on top of that the set has -2 Def than most of the other Lv 100 sets, which is rather significant, I think it's pretty well balanced. And on Adamant's note, while it may be a tad strong as a Anti-Zoning tool, it's also very important on a lot of rushdown characters, and opens opportunities for combo potential on a few, and I don't really wanna see that go :Tappa:

24 minutes ago, Sys said:

Enabling the AGG (Attack) feature would also quite nerf characters with horribly unsafe "pokes" like Bartz or Cecil since their framedata is horrible for building Assist. By disabling this, those same characters are made more viable because they no longer whiff an unsafe poke as a necessity just to keep up with the rest of the cast.

I agree with this, but it also hurts zoners that often have to whiff attacks in order to exert pressure, that's why I suggest it be something very low, like 20-30%, but I think it's important to have at least somewhat.

Otherwise all your points make sense.

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Here's a few thoughts from playing a few games with Sys today

 

The main thing I noticed is that on average, the player that is winning will get about 1.2 assist and 1 EX per game, while the player that is losing will get 0.9 and 0.7 (these are not hard numbers). This is a lot lower than I expected, especially on assist. This means that Assist Critical Boost isnt really that good since it'll only activate 1 or at most 2 times per game. With Zidane, I expect EXP to Assist to be a big impact, but turns out to build a full assist meter you would need to deal more damage to the opponent than their max HP anyway. I won two Zidane games without using assist.

How much assist people should get is in part a matter of taste, and these numbers might be way off from the fact that we only played a small amount of characters. However I would like to see the losing player able to at least expect to get 1 bar. Maybe changing the assist on hit to 130 over 120 would be good, but I would like to test with 120 more before saying. As for gaining assist on whiff, that is in my imo completely out of the question. It's not that it's a bad idea. I really enjoy Official, where you are constantly whiffing. But the vision for this ruleset is precisely that people should not be whiffing for meter, and be rewarded for hitting the opponent instead.

And not having assist on whiff makes a HUGE difference in how the neutral is played. This has been very enjoyable for me, and is easily the best aspect of the ruleset.

As for EX, the situation is a bit worse. Because of the rate at which one builds EX and one deals damage, I found that ist very likely for the winning player to complete their EX meter at about the same time the opponent's HP hits the ~1k range. This means that a lot of games will end anti-climatically by having player A walk into B's move just so they can EXR for the win. Even outside of Final EXR, EXR is a lot more powerful here than in official, because your opponent will never have the meter to AC out, and they have no EX Depletion (free break with post HP EXR).

Another point is how players get EX. Of course, one way is to have moves that generate lots of EX (thunder, double cut etc) and use TA/White Gem/etc. I expect this to be the main way of getting EX. But turns out cores are a thing. Basically, Dragonfly Orb is really good in this ruleset. Because the rules delete that acc's main drawback (that it speeds up your auto assist decay) and because a lot of the competition for your slots have been banned, Dragonfly Orb stands out as a top tier item. Im currently running "EX Core" builds on basically every character: DFO + 4 1.3x boosters. The only exception being Lightning, whose boosters were removed to make room for 3x White Drop. The result of this is that competing for Cores becomes extremely important, which imo is a bad thing because Cores disrupt the flow of the game a lot of times, and getting Cores boils down to RNG almost always.

I didnt get to play Squall, but his weapon gives +30% to cores lol

Further on the topic of builds, I feel like there arent a lot of options. There are so few good boosters in this game we were playing CSO just to have some. Even then I often had the problem of having more slots than I have good items to equip, and ended equipping stuff like Miracle Shoes, Blue Gem and Green Gem. It's possible there are things Im missing (especially because I didnt play any WR characters), so Ill want to play with this a bit more.

 

Oh, and assist charge is complete bullshit too.

 

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How much assist people should get is in part a matter of taste, and these numbers might be way off from the fact that we only played a small amount of characters. However I would like to see the losing player able to at least expect to get 1 bar. Maybe changing the assist on hit to 130 over 120 would be good, but I would like to test with 120 more before saying.

Noted. The only reason it's not any higher is because Squall himself is one of the best at gaining Assist meter in this meta. If say we theoretically set it to 150, everyone would have a nice shot at at least getting 1 bar but Squall would be kinda insane. But this is conjecture of course.

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As for gaining assist on whiff, that is in my imo completely out of the question. It's not that it's a bad idea. I really enjoy Official, where you are constantly whiffing. But the vision for this ruleset is precisely that people should not be whiffing for meter, and be rewarded for hitting the opponent instead.

And not having assist on whiff makes a HUGE difference in how the neutral is played. This has been very enjoyable for me, and is easily the best aspect of the ruleset.

Another reason why Assist Gauge Up Dash was banned. Otherwise both players would be dry-humping for their friends to come attack the other guy all day.KevinTurtle_zps012e4b32.png

And yes, I agree. The neutral itself is also the best part. It's sort of similar to how DFF's neutral was played. We didn't even get to play with Omni Air Dash today though despite the fact that it's nerfed in this game smh.

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As for EX, the situation is a bit worse. Because of the rate at which one builds EX and one deals damage, I found that ist very likely for the winning player to complete their EX meter at about the same time the opponent's HP hits the ~1k range. This means that a lot of games will end anti-climatically by having player A walk into B's move just so they can EXR for the win. Even outside of Final EXR, EXR is a lot more powerful here than in official, because your opponent will never have the meter to AC out, and they have no EX Depletion (free break with post HP EXR).

Tbh, Hollowed and I thought about this for awhile and iirc the ruling came down to "not having EX depletion ends games faster" or something along those lines. Elaborating on this on your below comment (next paragraph) on the Dragonfly Orb, I'm starting to think that we both may have banned EX Core Absorption boosts a long time ago because of this concern. Again, no hasty conclusions. But I'm inclined to agree. Spyder, Hollowed, and I were also talking about Dismay Shock / EX Depletion's effect on the White Lotus meta as well.

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Another point is how players get EX. Of course, one way is to have moves that generate lots of EX (thunder, double cut etc) and use TA/White Gem/etc. I expect this to be the main way of getting EX. But turns out cores are a thing. Basically, Dragonfly Orb is really good in this ruleset. Because the rules delete that acc's main drawback (that it speeds up your auto assist decay) and because a lot of the competition for your slots have been banned, Dragonfly Orb stands out as a top tier item. Im currently running "EX Core" builds on basically every character: DFO + 4 1.3x boosters. The only exception being Lightning, whose boosters were removed to make room for 3x White Drop. The result of this is that competing for Cores becomes extremely important, which imo is a bad thing because Cores disrupt the flow of the game a lot of times, and getting Cores boils down to RNG almost always.

At one point, I think we reduced Core appearances to 1? We even just outright deleted Cores from the game at one point. But I suppose it's the amount that you get from it as well as the RNG that matters.

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I didnt get to play Squall, but his weapon gives +30% to cores lol

Kappa_zpsa144aadb.png

 

Iirc we (Hollowed and I) were debating on enabling exceptions to let certain characters equip certain banned abilities because of their Exclusive weapons at one point. Like Vaan's Zodiac Blade for Riposte. Or ExDeath's Enuo's Scourage for Riposte.

This could open another potential bag of worms where, by enabling this exception, we may need to enable the "bypassing banned Abilities/effects by letting everyone be able to equip their Exclusives that have a banned Ability on them" can of worms by virtue of fairness. Which honestly doesn't seem like too bad of an idea considering how balanced the Exclusives themselves are, except maybe Lightning's dual Exclusives and Squall's Core absorption exclusive which would make him even better than he already is.

Kefka would have his initial +20% EX. Squall gets his Core exclusives. etc. I think it would be like not letting Feral Chaos equip Brute Force or Via Dolorosa.

Alternatively, we just outright ban Dragonfly Orb. :rolleyes:

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Further on the topic of builds, I feel like there arent a lot of options. There are so few good boosters in this game we were playing CSO just to have some. Even then I often had the problem of having more slots than I have good items to equip, and ended equipping stuff like Miracle Shoes, Blue Gem and Green Gem. It's possible there are things Im missing (especially because I didnt play any WR characters), so Ill want to play with this a bit more.

I kinda feel this. The builds don't seem to matter as much in this metagame. But it's agreeable that we play more games since it feels early to decide anything at all.

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Oh, and assist charge is complete bullshit too.

_C1 Remove Full Assist Charge
_L 0xE0015520 0x002EEB76
_L 0x202EEB74 0x10000019
_C1 Remove Single Bar Assist Charge
_L 0xE00115B2 0x002EEAB6
_L 0x202EEAB4 0x10000022

http://forums.ppsspp.org/showthread.php?tid=3590

There's always this. Both players would need to enable this to have this active in-game. I imagine it would need to be active for the replays to work as well.

Edited by Sys

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I know I'm double-posting but:

 

This is wayyyy after the last update on the ruleset years ago, but ever since I thought about posting this ruleset again, I thought about upping the Crit damage to 120 or 130 taking the average low overall bonus rewarded damage output (and damage output in general) into account (disregarding Wallrushes). Maybe it would be better for the metagame, maybe worse. I imagine it would change the neutral alot; I could be wrong.

Edited by Sys

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Oh yeah something I didn't even touch upon at all, a huge issue with this ruleset is that since assists are low, and EX Depletion is gone, losing 3k to EXR whenever you land an HP is very

not fun

 

it can lead to hording assist until you can either close out the round or protect from EXR

Edited by Eddiegames

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I've been hit with a TON of real-life happenings so it's making it really hard for me to work on this ruleset solo at all, let alone edit the replays I've accumulated. So in the meantime, I'm gonna roll out these unofficial changes until something else happens.

Unofficial changes 4/18/2019 the "Sys" route:

- Dismay Shock unbanned

- EX Critical Boost is banned

- Crit damage set to 150

- AST on Hit set to 150

- Cosmos Judgment is enabled

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Disregard Cosmos Judgment. The 2nd effect completely ruins the balancing effect that its 1st effect does.

For those who don't know:

The 1st effect protects your Assist Gauge from being emptied out if your opponent enters EX Mode. 

 

Only if your Base BRV is equal to or lower (unfortunately). Which would have balanced out Gabranth by default regardless.

 

The 2nd effect gives you a Full EX Bar immediately once your HP Bar becomes "Near Death"; afterwards, if the reciever of the EX Bar is not in Break, he/she can just EXR immediately if the other guy doesn't have an Assist and Break him/her for free.

 

The only way to prevent this is to hoard enough BRV for the kill. This is forced unhealthy play and goes against a part of what this ruleset also tries to accomplish in the first place, which is to cut out as much BS as possible.

Edited by Sys

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  • Similar Content

    • By Sys
      DISCLAIMER: The actual ruleset is past the 3rd "_____________________" all the way below.
       
      _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
       
            A short overview of the history behind this ruleset's creation, recounted from memory...
           
      _______________________________________
       
      Overview:

      On the surface, when you look at the final product, it is just an in-game change of values and a series of Ability bans, Equipment bans and a purposeful x3.1 Booster multiplier limit garnered after countless hours upon hours of discussion and debate. Heck, you could compare this to how the Street Fighter series had its own fair share of remixes / revisions / Editions / Arcade Editions etc. and changes in gameplay balance / mechanics. But instead of summarizing and trying to explain how the average match with this ruleset actually feels, I will say this: I am an absolutely firm believer of showing instead of telling. Thus, on the basis of that statement, I cordially invite you to try it. In fact, I fervently encourage you to do so. Perhaps the DFF veterans may quite enjoy how this version of the game feels.
       
      And without further ado, here it is.

      _______________________________________
       
      Ruleset: White Lotus
       
      Your Booster multiplier limit CANNOT be greater than x 3.1.
      Your Base BRV CANNOT be greater than 1250.
       
      ~Equipment/Accessory Banlist~
      ANYTHING that has the effect of:

      EX / AST Depletion
      Initial BRV, Initial EX, and/or Initial AST
      EXP boosts
      Regen
      BRV Recovery+%
      BRV Boost on Stage Destruction
      BRV / EX / AST Iai Strike
      EXR Duration boosts
      EX Core Appearance boosts
      ~Accessories.~
      Side by Side
      Safety Bit
      Muscle Belt
      Earring
      Battle Ring
      Rebellious Soul
      Glutton
      Close to You
      Breakable accessories
      x1.4 boosters
      x1.5 boosters
      Level Gap >= _________ boosters.
      Soul of Yamato (Genji set)
      Snowpetal set
      Piggy's Stick
      Thornlet

      ~Ability bans~

      Assist Gauge Up Dash.
      Achy / Achy+
      Concentration / + / ++.
      Snooze and Lose.
      Riposte.
      Disable Counterattack.
      Disable Sneakattack.
      You may equip Counterattack or Sneak Attack, but you may ONLY have one of either.

      ~Ruleset Parameter changes~
      Critical Damage = 110
      Wallrush Damage = 35%
      Assist Gauge Charge (Attack) = 0
      Assist Gauge Charge (Hit) = 120
      EX Revenge Duration = 3 Seconds
      EX Damage from Assist Attack = 200
       
      ~ Fin. ~
       
       
      The only gameplay videos of the most up-to-date version of the ruleset from about 5 years ago:
      Sys Vs. Spyder and Hollowed
      Sys Vs. Hollowed Bo3
       
      I would like to give my special thanks and credits to...
       
       
      P. S.
      Achy / Achy+ was banned because of the effect of Full Assist Charges. That being said, for those out there who use CWCheats in friendlies, there is a code that disables Assist Charges by default as long as all connected players have that code active while fighting. Go figure.
      P. S.S. Some tips on attaining and maintaining an exact multiplier of x3.1 (or close to it) by the following:
       
       
      P. S.S.S.
      Here is a file link to a seperate Save Data containing the ruleset itself in the 2nd slot. It does not contain any pre-made builds for characters because that is ALOT of work. Maybe I'll do it later, I don't have enough time right now. Or you could make your own builds.
      http://www.mediafire.com/folder/6avwgz9n19f31/ULUS10566GameData01
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